I do not think of death at all. Not in the sense that something or someone that was once animated and full of life, and individual value suddenly no longer possesses such. Perhaps it's a way for me to better deal with the idea of it, but the jury is still out on that. While I do not have thoughts in that context, I do continually see an end to things.
I heard something in a movie once. Someone said "as far as I am concerned, bacon comes from a magical happy place". It wasn't obvious to me then, or since, but now I think there might just be more wisdom to that statement than I had considered. There is a companion saying I heard elsewhere ( cant recall where, which is mildly frustrating ) but it was a comedian of some kind, describing the Netherlands. He said that the people there are largely responded to the topic of death and the like with a question of their own "Do you remember what it was like before you were born?" To which the obvious answer was No. They responded with "Thats what death will be like".
There comes the subjective nature to all things I think. For me, the idea was one that brought me comfort. Not because I have any fear of being punished in some eternal hell for some perceived evil I committed, but because it seemed like the best I could hope for in the event of my death. "Finally," I thought, "I can set this weight down." A weight I no longer could even tell you how I amassed it. It's self imposed, for sure, and a weight that I should not carry, but I do. I risk another 5 paragraphs if I elaborate more on that, so I'll spare you.
That hand you feel in such moments as you described...when it rests on my own shoulder there is no words at all. Perhaps that's because it's what I need most in those moments. In my teen years I got it into my head that crying at funerals for me, is a shameful thing. Why do we cry when someone close to us is no longer with us? It's for the loss, the emptiness that we feel inside. It SHOULD be for the things they lost, not the impact that loss has on us. For anyone who might read that and get the wrong idea: this is not a healthy view of death and loss. It's not inaccurate, but also most people could do far better than to adopt a view such as mine. It just works for me as I need it to, everyone else has a process that works for them, I hope.
As for being unable to get your mind wrapped around consciousness being gone, I think remembering birth part from earlier gives a pretty good framework for doing just that. Another one of those moments were two things can be true at once. You are correct, I think, in that we need to lean on experience to have a decent way to predict. It's just not the only way.
How ought we live, when we also know that death comes for us all? Exactly as you are, I think. If I have any beliefs that I can only loosely point to good examples of why I hold them it would be my belief that what comes around goes around. It's one idea that is a requirement for me because were the bad never punished, and the good never rewarded, It would be far more difficult to be a good person for me. As usual, not for the most obvious reason. I have zero desire to do harm to anyone, to possess something I did not earn, or strive for. My worldview tells me that it's likely the rest of the world does not collectively feel the same way. That's a road I do not want to dwell on. I've likely already selfishly, and unintentionally tried to grandstand here. My only defense is that the post did posit questions, and I am nothing if not always needing the least bit of reason to give an idea the attention I can summon to pick it apart, to understand better.
You said:
Most of us live in avoidance. Not necessarily of death itself, but of what it means to exist. We drift into appearances, roles, and busyness. This is not because we’re shallow, but because it’s easier. Easier than confronting the uncertainty and weight of being alive
That strikes me as odd. I do live in avoidance of anything that requires me to socialize even briefly. However, I actively refuse to "drift into appearances, roles, or busyness" because a deeply held, core belief for me is that I will be who I want to be. Others perception of me is a factor, but it is not so big of one that I will ever change who I am unless I come to see some aspect of myself as being inadequate, or dishonorable, or evil. I will not allow those things to exist in my self.
I'd say you are also correct, or rather Kierkegaard ( what a bad ass name ) was. I do not imitate, as far as I am aware and my life is full of sincerety and choice. All things are choices in our day to day lives I think, even if many of them are ones made without realizing it, and the more I stay aware of my choices, I think they automatically become sincere.
Greenberg and et all.....I think I'd take from their work as a sign that some of the best, most human traits come from the ability to reflect on oneself. I would imagine many people would not enjoy having a self image that is perhaps on the more rough side of mortality. Generally, I think people are aware of when they are being a bag of broken hammers, but also only really care when someone else is also counting those hammers. I reflect on my days each and every night. If I found myself in an argument, being irrational, or feel as if some unfairness had crept in on my part of against me. This is another requirement for me for reasons I do not care to share at this time, but I think doing so should be done by everyone is possible. Problems can only be corrected if were aware of them, and see them as problems.
I feel like I was all over the place in this comment, but I also am aware that if I was all over the place, it's a reflection of the depth of your post to begin wiith. To close, I will put it out there that I am not qualified to offer advice or guidance to someone who has spent a far greater amount of time and effort into understanding the human condition. Further, unasked for opinions are rarely ever recieved with warmth. So instead, I tell my own story. It's not because I am arrogant, or self centered, I hope. It's because it's the only way I know of that allows me to in some small way, share the pain, maybe making it somewhat easier for someone else.
I wanted to say how much I appreciated your comment & the way you chose to share your story. Never as advice, but as a way to connect :) I have great interest in hearing how people have come to see things through their own lived experience.
That concept from the Netherlands, that death is like what came before birth, has crossed my path before, and I’ve always found it compelling. There’s an animation film called Soul that touches on this idea in a beautiful way. If you haven’t seen it, I’d really recommend it.
You mention the weight you carry, and how the thought of death sometimes feels like the setting down of something that’s been with you too long to trace. I’ve felt this too, not always, but when I do think of my own death, it sometimes comes with a sense of relief more than fear.
I also share your discomfort with funerals. No matter how much I’ve loved the person, I find them difficult to be present in. I show up out of obligation, but I rarely feel connected to grief in that setting.
Your reflection on self-awareness, and the idea of not drifting into roles or appearances, is unique. That kind of resistance, I think, often comes from sustained self-reflection, which from what you express, is something you take seriously. Reflecting every evening on your actions and your day isn’t a small thing. It speaks to a real inner commitment to growth, even if you frame it modestly.
I also share your view that striving to be good isn’t always easy, especially when good actions aren’t seen or acknowledged. We live in a world that’s quick to punish but often slow to recognise integrity. Still, like you, I think it’s worth holding on to the belief that what we put out into the world has some kind of weight, even if it’s not always visible.
Thank you again, Ryan, for your words and for the care you brought to them. And thank you too for your kind thoughts at the end and support to my Newsletter. It means a lot.
They say you'll only know when you experience the same yourself... And i've been through this. Whenever someone close to me dies, first i feel the mortality hand pat on my shoulder. Then after a week it all feels like a dream. Like that person never existed in my real life but in my dreams. I think my brain plays tricks on me so i won't give up on living and so it denies their existence after their deaths. It's just so difficult to put into words. But yeah death prepares me for my departure as well. I try not to waste my life that i have no idea how much is remaining. I clear up my mind and do all the things today i left for tomorrow. Life is short! I remind myself over and over ...
Hey Sarah, it’s so nice seeing you here. Thank you for saying this, your words reflect my exact feelings. I agree with you. I believe that, in many ways, the fact that the thought of death is not always lurking around is what helps keep us going. I think this is more than just a brain trick; it’s an adaptive mechanism. Otherwise, what motivation would we, as humans, have to strive forth?
You're right Dom i'm never afraid of my own death but someone else's death is quite unbearing for me and so my brain mechanically turn them into an imaginary characters from a dream. Becoz surviving is living and so my brain act on its own to get me out of the pain. Brain is such a complicated organ.
And once again i learned something new from you Dom Thank you :)
So sorry for your loss! Beautiful post honoring your brother in-law and helping you process what just happened. Death changes us. It interrupts and disrupts our lives in a painful way. I feel you! I’ve been there lots of times. ❤️
Hey Dom, my condolences to you, amidst your brother in law's unexpected death. Your writing is, as always, very insightful about the matter of death and living. It made me think of that often quoted Henry David Thoreau's "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."
So perhaps a reflection would be how did your brother in law live and what could be learned from his life? And by the way, Thoreau might have been dead wrong with that gross generalization. One of your compatriots wrote about this, that most people in fact do not live like that. What is your perspective as a mind and psychology expert?
Thanks for sharing this article. I read it carefully, and as Dr. Landau says about Thoreau’s quote, I’ll say the same about the piece: I have some difficulties with it!
To start with, it sets out to assess the interpretation and accuracy of a well-known quote, but does so by admitting that while desperation and depression are not the same, it uses them interchangeably anyway. That already raises some questions about clarity. Don't you think? :)
Second, the article references studies (when claiming that most people are happy) involving the Maasai, the Amish, and the Inughuit to argue against Thoreau’s generalisation. These are fascinating groups, but hardly representative of the world population. There’s an irony here: it criticises Thoreau for generalising from too narrow a sample, and then seems to do the same.
Third, contrary to what Dr. Landau speculates, I don't believe a single quote "lures" people into desperation, or convinces them that despair is a necessary condition, or encourages them to perform it as a form of authenticity. That feels more like an overreach than an insight to me.
Only last week I discussed something similar here on Substack (on someone's comment feed). Critical thinking is essential in science, but too often it's confused with simply criticising. And when that happens, the critique can end up falling into the very traps it sets out to expose.
Now, what do I think of Thoreau's quote?
It’s not a scientific claim, so I don’t see why it needs to be evaluated like one. Is it a generalisation? Clearly. So let’s approach it as such and define things properly while we do. Desperation here means despair, and to me, the key word is quiet. When we rephrase it slightly : “the mass of men lead lives of quiet despair”, it becomes more about a felt experience than a definitive condition. That doesn’t sound far-fetched to me. It doesn’t mean this is the only experience people go through either. Various sentiments can, and often do, coexist. One can live with the ordinary anxieties of life (a quiet desperation?) and still be functional, love, achieve, forgive and so forth.
To my mind, Thoreau was naming something that many feel but rarely say, and this is why it is so often quoted to this day :)
I would think that the original would be the more accurate description. At least, to my own life. I could very easily see how your version might have become more apt in todays society however. Main due to the definition of despair and desperation. Despair is to be hopeless, but desperation is a similar state, but one that inspires action for fear of falling into the former. In short, despair is to give up, desperation is to take action to avoid doing so.
Maybe that's why he says 'quiet' desperation? For some reason I really think the 'quiet' here is they key :) I like your view on what each state can bring forth:
Despair = surrender vs. desperation = to action. I hadn't seen it like this before!
You are right, I think. I was too focused on the feeling, and not the way it's expressed. Quiet is most certainly the point. People can be equally stubborn but I tend to quietly go about despairing myself.
As always, I am left with one set of thoughts at the beginning, and a different set by the end of reading this. I am rather familiar with this terrain because of the life I've led, choices I've made, and things I remain blind to have all led me to a place where everything you said holds true, but the implied proportionality is the most important point for me. I am leaving a job site right now but wanted to take a moment now. I will take a longer moment when I get home.
There are 2 or 3 things in your musings that have struct a chord that I still need to give attention to
It goes without saying that I know what it feels like to lose someone abruptly. No platitudes or kind words ever did anything for me, the habitual solitidal creature that I am. If such things are in some way beneficial, then I offer my condolences as well
I do not think of death at all. Not in the sense that something or someone that was once animated and full of life, and individual value suddenly no longer possesses such. Perhaps it's a way for me to better deal with the idea of it, but the jury is still out on that. While I do not have thoughts in that context, I do continually see an end to things.
I heard something in a movie once. Someone said "as far as I am concerned, bacon comes from a magical happy place". It wasn't obvious to me then, or since, but now I think there might just be more wisdom to that statement than I had considered. There is a companion saying I heard elsewhere ( cant recall where, which is mildly frustrating ) but it was a comedian of some kind, describing the Netherlands. He said that the people there are largely responded to the topic of death and the like with a question of their own "Do you remember what it was like before you were born?" To which the obvious answer was No. They responded with "Thats what death will be like".
There comes the subjective nature to all things I think. For me, the idea was one that brought me comfort. Not because I have any fear of being punished in some eternal hell for some perceived evil I committed, but because it seemed like the best I could hope for in the event of my death. "Finally," I thought, "I can set this weight down." A weight I no longer could even tell you how I amassed it. It's self imposed, for sure, and a weight that I should not carry, but I do. I risk another 5 paragraphs if I elaborate more on that, so I'll spare you.
That hand you feel in such moments as you described...when it rests on my own shoulder there is no words at all. Perhaps that's because it's what I need most in those moments. In my teen years I got it into my head that crying at funerals for me, is a shameful thing. Why do we cry when someone close to us is no longer with us? It's for the loss, the emptiness that we feel inside. It SHOULD be for the things they lost, not the impact that loss has on us. For anyone who might read that and get the wrong idea: this is not a healthy view of death and loss. It's not inaccurate, but also most people could do far better than to adopt a view such as mine. It just works for me as I need it to, everyone else has a process that works for them, I hope.
As for being unable to get your mind wrapped around consciousness being gone, I think remembering birth part from earlier gives a pretty good framework for doing just that. Another one of those moments were two things can be true at once. You are correct, I think, in that we need to lean on experience to have a decent way to predict. It's just not the only way.
How ought we live, when we also know that death comes for us all? Exactly as you are, I think. If I have any beliefs that I can only loosely point to good examples of why I hold them it would be my belief that what comes around goes around. It's one idea that is a requirement for me because were the bad never punished, and the good never rewarded, It would be far more difficult to be a good person for me. As usual, not for the most obvious reason. I have zero desire to do harm to anyone, to possess something I did not earn, or strive for. My worldview tells me that it's likely the rest of the world does not collectively feel the same way. That's a road I do not want to dwell on. I've likely already selfishly, and unintentionally tried to grandstand here. My only defense is that the post did posit questions, and I am nothing if not always needing the least bit of reason to give an idea the attention I can summon to pick it apart, to understand better.
You said:
Most of us live in avoidance. Not necessarily of death itself, but of what it means to exist. We drift into appearances, roles, and busyness. This is not because we’re shallow, but because it’s easier. Easier than confronting the uncertainty and weight of being alive
That strikes me as odd. I do live in avoidance of anything that requires me to socialize even briefly. However, I actively refuse to "drift into appearances, roles, or busyness" because a deeply held, core belief for me is that I will be who I want to be. Others perception of me is a factor, but it is not so big of one that I will ever change who I am unless I come to see some aspect of myself as being inadequate, or dishonorable, or evil. I will not allow those things to exist in my self.
I'd say you are also correct, or rather Kierkegaard ( what a bad ass name ) was. I do not imitate, as far as I am aware and my life is full of sincerety and choice. All things are choices in our day to day lives I think, even if many of them are ones made without realizing it, and the more I stay aware of my choices, I think they automatically become sincere.
Greenberg and et all.....I think I'd take from their work as a sign that some of the best, most human traits come from the ability to reflect on oneself. I would imagine many people would not enjoy having a self image that is perhaps on the more rough side of mortality. Generally, I think people are aware of when they are being a bag of broken hammers, but also only really care when someone else is also counting those hammers. I reflect on my days each and every night. If I found myself in an argument, being irrational, or feel as if some unfairness had crept in on my part of against me. This is another requirement for me for reasons I do not care to share at this time, but I think doing so should be done by everyone is possible. Problems can only be corrected if were aware of them, and see them as problems.
I feel like I was all over the place in this comment, but I also am aware that if I was all over the place, it's a reflection of the depth of your post to begin wiith. To close, I will put it out there that I am not qualified to offer advice or guidance to someone who has spent a far greater amount of time and effort into understanding the human condition. Further, unasked for opinions are rarely ever recieved with warmth. So instead, I tell my own story. It's not because I am arrogant, or self centered, I hope. It's because it's the only way I know of that allows me to in some small way, share the pain, maybe making it somewhat easier for someone else.
I am sorry for your loss. Be Well.
Hi Ryan,
I wanted to say how much I appreciated your comment & the way you chose to share your story. Never as advice, but as a way to connect :) I have great interest in hearing how people have come to see things through their own lived experience.
That concept from the Netherlands, that death is like what came before birth, has crossed my path before, and I’ve always found it compelling. There’s an animation film called Soul that touches on this idea in a beautiful way. If you haven’t seen it, I’d really recommend it.
You mention the weight you carry, and how the thought of death sometimes feels like the setting down of something that’s been with you too long to trace. I’ve felt this too, not always, but when I do think of my own death, it sometimes comes with a sense of relief more than fear.
I also share your discomfort with funerals. No matter how much I’ve loved the person, I find them difficult to be present in. I show up out of obligation, but I rarely feel connected to grief in that setting.
Your reflection on self-awareness, and the idea of not drifting into roles or appearances, is unique. That kind of resistance, I think, often comes from sustained self-reflection, which from what you express, is something you take seriously. Reflecting every evening on your actions and your day isn’t a small thing. It speaks to a real inner commitment to growth, even if you frame it modestly.
I also share your view that striving to be good isn’t always easy, especially when good actions aren’t seen or acknowledged. We live in a world that’s quick to punish but often slow to recognise integrity. Still, like you, I think it’s worth holding on to the belief that what we put out into the world has some kind of weight, even if it’s not always visible.
Thank you again, Ryan, for your words and for the care you brought to them. And thank you too for your kind thoughts at the end and support to my Newsletter. It means a lot.
Warmly,
Dom
They say you'll only know when you experience the same yourself... And i've been through this. Whenever someone close to me dies, first i feel the mortality hand pat on my shoulder. Then after a week it all feels like a dream. Like that person never existed in my real life but in my dreams. I think my brain plays tricks on me so i won't give up on living and so it denies their existence after their deaths. It's just so difficult to put into words. But yeah death prepares me for my departure as well. I try not to waste my life that i have no idea how much is remaining. I clear up my mind and do all the things today i left for tomorrow. Life is short! I remind myself over and over ...
Hey Sarah, it’s so nice seeing you here. Thank you for saying this, your words reflect my exact feelings. I agree with you. I believe that, in many ways, the fact that the thought of death is not always lurking around is what helps keep us going. I think this is more than just a brain trick; it’s an adaptive mechanism. Otherwise, what motivation would we, as humans, have to strive forth?
You're right Dom i'm never afraid of my own death but someone else's death is quite unbearing for me and so my brain mechanically turn them into an imaginary characters from a dream. Becoz surviving is living and so my brain act on its own to get me out of the pain. Brain is such a complicated organ.
And once again i learned something new from you Dom Thank you :)
We’re all learning from one another Sarah <3
So sorry for your loss! Beautiful post honoring your brother in-law and helping you process what just happened. Death changes us. It interrupts and disrupts our lives in a painful way. I feel you! I’ve been there lots of times. ❤️
Thank you for the kind, comforting words Ann. It's always so nice seeing you around <3
Of course, anytime! ❤️
I'm sorry for your loss. Always here if you need to talk.
I know Leon & it means a lot to me.
Thank you <3
Hey Dom, my condolences to you, amidst your brother in law's unexpected death. Your writing is, as always, very insightful about the matter of death and living. It made me think of that often quoted Henry David Thoreau's "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."
So perhaps a reflection would be how did your brother in law live and what could be learned from his life? And by the way, Thoreau might have been dead wrong with that gross generalization. One of your compatriots wrote about this, that most people in fact do not live like that. What is your perspective as a mind and psychology expert?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/za/blog/finding-meaning-in-an-imperfect-world/201806/do-the-mass-of-men-lead-lives-of-quiet
Hi Horseman,
Thanks for sharing this article. I read it carefully, and as Dr. Landau says about Thoreau’s quote, I’ll say the same about the piece: I have some difficulties with it!
To start with, it sets out to assess the interpretation and accuracy of a well-known quote, but does so by admitting that while desperation and depression are not the same, it uses them interchangeably anyway. That already raises some questions about clarity. Don't you think? :)
Second, the article references studies (when claiming that most people are happy) involving the Maasai, the Amish, and the Inughuit to argue against Thoreau’s generalisation. These are fascinating groups, but hardly representative of the world population. There’s an irony here: it criticises Thoreau for generalising from too narrow a sample, and then seems to do the same.
Third, contrary to what Dr. Landau speculates, I don't believe a single quote "lures" people into desperation, or convinces them that despair is a necessary condition, or encourages them to perform it as a form of authenticity. That feels more like an overreach than an insight to me.
Only last week I discussed something similar here on Substack (on someone's comment feed). Critical thinking is essential in science, but too often it's confused with simply criticising. And when that happens, the critique can end up falling into the very traps it sets out to expose.
Now, what do I think of Thoreau's quote?
It’s not a scientific claim, so I don’t see why it needs to be evaluated like one. Is it a generalisation? Clearly. So let’s approach it as such and define things properly while we do. Desperation here means despair, and to me, the key word is quiet. When we rephrase it slightly : “the mass of men lead lives of quiet despair”, it becomes more about a felt experience than a definitive condition. That doesn’t sound far-fetched to me. It doesn’t mean this is the only experience people go through either. Various sentiments can, and often do, coexist. One can live with the ordinary anxieties of life (a quiet desperation?) and still be functional, love, achieve, forgive and so forth.
To my mind, Thoreau was naming something that many feel but rarely say, and this is why it is so often quoted to this day :)
I would think that the original would be the more accurate description. At least, to my own life. I could very easily see how your version might have become more apt in todays society however. Main due to the definition of despair and desperation. Despair is to be hopeless, but desperation is a similar state, but one that inspires action for fear of falling into the former. In short, despair is to give up, desperation is to take action to avoid doing so.
Be well.
Maybe that's why he says 'quiet' desperation? For some reason I really think the 'quiet' here is they key :) I like your view on what each state can bring forth:
Despair = surrender vs. desperation = to action. I hadn't seen it like this before!
You are right, I think. I was too focused on the feeling, and not the way it's expressed. Quiet is most certainly the point. People can be equally stubborn but I tend to quietly go about despairing myself.
I enjoyed your analysis of that, great!
The verdict is probably still out, eh?
I mean, we just don’t know empirically if “most….” is true or not?
My own gut level feeling is that it is mostly true…
Ahhh, “mostly” throws the whole thing into a spin eh!
Love never fails 🌱
No, Horseman, we don’t know empirically. We could find out, but it would take some time-consuming work :)
As always, I am left with one set of thoughts at the beginning, and a different set by the end of reading this. I am rather familiar with this terrain because of the life I've led, choices I've made, and things I remain blind to have all led me to a place where everything you said holds true, but the implied proportionality is the most important point for me. I am leaving a job site right now but wanted to take a moment now. I will take a longer moment when I get home.
There are 2 or 3 things in your musings that have struct a chord that I still need to give attention to
It goes without saying that I know what it feels like to lose someone abruptly. No platitudes or kind words ever did anything for me, the habitual solitidal creature that I am. If such things are in some way beneficial, then I offer my condolences as well
I'm so sorry for your loss. 💙
Oh Scott, that's so thoughtful. Thank you 💙